In Defense Of Plastic Surgery
Photo credit: ekai
This is a guest post by Dan Miller, a real-life friend of mine who writes about philosophy, religion, physics, artificial intelligence and virtual worlds in his blog Artiphys. In this post, Dan is responding to my recent post on Ageism. Dan thinks “aging gracefully” backfires in today’s culture and argues that there’s nothing wrong with using the tools available to us to slow down the natural aging process.
The sense I get from your post, and from the majority of responses, is that it is somehow unseemly for someone to fight the visual process of ageing using surgery, or techniques such as Botox. Instead, we should gracefully accept God’s chosen aesthetics of age, and admire our craggy faces and sagging skin with the delicate acquired tastes of an aficionado.
Of course, we don’t live in that world. Instead, we live in a world that idolizes youth and youthfulness, and physical beauty as some sort of special achievement, and worthy of exceptional praise. In such a world, looking old is not just an issue of looking “bad” — it’s also a label. If you’re old, you are not only not beautiful and desirable, you’re also uncool, over the hill, washed up, and should do the polite thing by just fading away to Florida or a long cruise, or some other acceptable playground for the unfortunately aged.
Photo credit: notinponce
But what if you don’t think that way about yourself? Surely we’ve all seen the spectrum of attitudes to age — from the mid-40’s balding overweight fellow who is already counting the years to retirement, to the spry, energetic grandmom who loves to play with the kids, does watercolors, blogs incessantly, and generally enjoys life with the enthusiasm of a 12-yr old.
Now suppose you’re one of those forever-young types, but you happen to live in Hollywood, and your profession is tied mercilessly to your looks and the perception people have of your appearance. You are photographed constantly, in high-def, and examined for signs of decrepitude. Is it so terrible in that situation for you to choose to do what many others (your competition in some sense) do, and improve your appearance using the available tools? Or do you have an obligation to take yourself out of the race and let the young turks have a chance at the brass ring?
We don’t disparage people for getting hip replacements just so they can ski or play tennis a few years more. What if you’re approaching 60, but you still feel frisky, and want to be able to appear in a way that makes it easier for you to integrate with people whose perception of age is so deeply marked by society’s expectations? If it’s OK to take the risk of surgery to do athletics, why is it off-limits to have surgery to expand your options in terms of relationships?
I see this issue as something like trans-gender. If someone feels like they’re a woman trapped in a man’s body, and they will be happier looking like a woman (not usually a particularly attractive woman, as we all probably realize) — I say, that’s fine. That’s self-realization. And I see using surgery or Botox to look youthful as something along the same lines. Of course it can go too far (Joan Rivers, Michael Jackson) — but so can anything.
Jocelyn Wildenstein, the “cat woman”, took self improvement through plastic surgery to the extreme. Photo credit: feastoffools
There’s a big difference between a tasteful, subtle chin lift and the stretched-rubber-skin look of someone who just doesn’t know when to quit. I just don’t see the philosophical justification for saying it’s all terrible and hypocritical, and anyone who makes that choice is somehow guilty of some moral or ethical transgression.
I for one have little respect for nature’s (or God’s, if you prefer) idea of ‘graceful ageing’. Besides the looks part, the last year or two of life for most people I’ve known who didn’t die suddenly is nothing but a disgusting, shameful form of degradation and loss of dignity. That drives my feelings about euthanasia, but that’s for a different post. The basic point is, why take our nature as given, and refuse to improve upon it, if improvement is actually possible? We generally accept things like tattoos, body piercing, high heels, makeup and so on — is this really that different?
Much of what we do regarding our appearance is far from healthy (and I confess this goes more for women, but that seems to be a given in our society). I don’t care all that much about my appearance, and perhaps that’s because I’m a guy, but I’m sure going to use whatever I can get my hands on to prolong my quality of life and vitality. I think there’s an argument that one’s appearance is part of that equation.
Over to you now. What do you think? Are you in favor of “aging gracefully,” or do you agree with Dan that there’s no reason to accept nature’s aging process if we have the tools at our disposal to fight it?
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Noble Savage responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 2:45 am →
I understand people’s (especially women’s) desire to continue to ‘fit in’ and look the age they feel and I ackowledge that we are all under immense pressure to look beautiful and youthful for as long as possible. However, how will those societal expectations of youth and beauty ever be overcome if we all just acquiesce to them? As technology advances and expectations rise, it will only get worse. At some point we have to stand up to it and refuse to allow such a shallow perception rule us and diminish enjoyment of each stage in our lives as they progress.
I’m only 29 but I’m already considering discontinuing blonde highlights in my hair. I don’t mind my slightly darker blonde natural colour and I’m tired of shelling out £100 for the privilege of a manufactured manipulation of ‘sun-kissed youth’. If my husband found me less beautiful because my hair darkened by a few shades, or my boss thought me less intelligent or capable because I don’t cover my grey hairs — well, that’s their problem, frankly, not mine. I’d rather stand up to these ridiculous notions of youthfulness equating to ability (again, particularly for women — men seem to be considered smarter and more sage as they grow older) than allow myself to be carried along in the tide of shallowness that will only be worse and futher-reaching when my daughter is coming of age. By getting Botox or a face-lift I am saying to her that appearance is more important than my overall health (because both procedures carry health risks) and that’s not a message I want to send. That said, I don’t judge other people if that’s what they need to feel good about themselves and would never tell someone they shouldn’t do it if that’s what they really wanted.
Mike Goad responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 3:30 am →
Is it for vanity, livelihood, or quality of life?
If it’s for vanity’s sake alone, forget it, especially if it carries any potential risk.
If one’s livelihood is involved, that’s a different story. However, the potential risks still must be carefully considered.
If it’s a quality of life issue, then some amount of risk may be warranted, dependent on how difficult life is without it being done. For example, the person who recently had a face transplant was so horribly disfigured that she could not bear to be around people because of their responses to her appearance.
ChasingSanity.com responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 4:46 am →
“we live in a world that idolizes youth and youthfulness, and physical beauty as some sort of special achievement, and worthy of exceptional praise”
While this is true, I think the point here is that plastic surgery promotes this value on physical appearance. At some point we, individually and collectively, need to determine what we truly value and focus our efforts in that direction. The more plastic surgery becomes the norm, the more difficult this becomes.
My father, 61, has rather large “bags” under his eyes. I notice on some early mornings when I wake that they’re coming under my own eyes. It reinforces an AWARENESS of the aging process, and in that awareness we are connected with . . . . . . . how much is a little eye lift anyway? $2,000 an eye? Hmmmm . . . . I could save up, get one done at a time – lol.
Alik Levin | PracticeThis.com responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 7:00 am →
I think it is all about compromise of long/short term goals..
The picture in the post is self explanatory….
Suzie responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 8:30 am →
Whatever floats your boat. Its just sad through that we give over so much of our thoughts and time to vanity. The fact that we would put our life and health and finances on the line to look better doesnt sit well with me. But heck its your body if it makes you happy go for it. I for one am glad the site goes as you get older so you cant see yourself not aging gracefully
L responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 8:43 am →
What about the women who are opting to have a c-section followed immediately after with a tummy tuck? Their calling it designer delivery.
Friar responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 8:44 am →
Oh, I know I’ll probably get lecture for this
But I’d say it depends on what your line of work is.
For example, if your job involved physical labor (i.e a fireman) it would be in your best intested to keep in shape and excercise regulary. If you let yourself get fat and out of shape, it could affect your career. Hence, you go to the gym.
So if your job was to “look good” (i.e. movie stars or TV anchor), it would be in your best interest to stay young and good-looking. Letting yourself get “old” could affect your career. Hence the plastic surgery.
Tabitha (From Single to Married) responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:02 am →
I’m still fairly undecided about the issue, but the older I get (I’m 37) and the more I start to age (i’m already getting gray hair) I tend to lean towards thinking it’s okay. As it is, I get regular highlights in my hair, so why not a little touch up down the road? I’ve seen a few women I know get mini-face-lifts and they look fantastic, you’d never know. As long as the risks are minimal, I don’t have a problem with a little work.
Don Mills Diva responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:09 am →
I’m pretty torn on this too.
I’m against trying to look younger but very much on favor of trying to look great for my age. I don’t want to compete with 20-year-olds but I do want to be a pretty impressive looking 40-year-old and, one day, 60-year-old.
I think I might consider doing something when I feel that ageing has made me not look like me. I like to think if I am confident and in touch with who I am that might be never…
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:45 am →
Thank you everyone for your comments. Take a look at the Adsense ads on this page… there’s an entire industry devoted to looking younger than you really are. Personally, it makes me sad. I’m adding these ads to my blocked ads list, but I suspect similar ads will pop up to replace them.
@ Noble Savage: “how will those societal expectations of youth and beauty ever be overcome if we all just acquiesce to them? As technology advances and expectations rise, it will only get worse.” I agree. It’s already happening: I recently came across a magazine for women over 40. They had a photo there of a 45 year old woman who obviously had work done, since she looked 35, and the title said “this is what 45 looks like.” But this is not what 45 looks like. This is what we have come to expect 45 to look like. Same is true for “40 is the new 30.” It’s only true if you’re getting work done, but somehow it’s becoming the new standard.
@ Mike Goad: “If it’s for vanity’s sake alone, forget it, especially if it carries any potential risk” – I see you point, although Dan argues that even “vanity alone” is not just vanity because a person’s appearance and people’s reactions to it affects one’s quality of life.
@ ChasingSanity: “At some point we, individually and collectively, need to determine what we truly value and focus our efforts in that direction” – this is very true, but I’m not sure how we can achieve that. It seems as though people are already choosing procedures over nature. The stronger this trend becomes, the heftier price will be paid by those who choose to accept nature.
@ Alik Levin: The photo of Jocelyn Wildenstein is there as a warning, although obviously she’s an unusual case.
@ Suzie: I completely agree that we spend too much time, energy and money on our looks.
@ L: I wasn’t aware of that. I’m not sure what my reaction is. I guess Dan would think this is perfectly all right – why should they just accept the typical post-c-section tummy?
@ Friar: No lecture from me.
What you say makes sense. What does bother me is that the way movie stars look seems to affect ordinary people’s perception and expectations regarding aging.
@ Tabitha: We’re the same age. I can relate: once you start seeing the first signs of aging, it’s hard to say “never.”
@ Don Mills Diva: “I’m against trying to look younger but very much on favor of trying to look great for my age.” I completely agree. I just wish people would be considered good looking even with visible signs of aging. I wish society didn’t equate “beauty” with “youth”.
Carla responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:56 am →
I think I’m torn on the issue too. For me health and fitness and more important than just “beauty”. When I was unhealthy, not eating an optimal diet and not very active, I didn’t look good (IMO) despite my young age.
At the same time, I don’t know how I’m going to feel twenty years from now either since I am still young (30).
Jannie Funster responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 10:13 am →
Firstly, I think sensible sunning or next-to-no-sunning is the best defense in anti-ageing.
Aside from that, I see nothing wrong with a little nip and tuck here and there, if the person enjoys regular exercise, laughs a lot and keeps his or her creative life in full swing. Staying young to me is a package deal — mind, body and optimistic attitude!
Maxo responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 10:20 am →
I completely disagree with you. This obsession over youthful looks in unhealthy. I meet people (usually women) all the time who obsess over every single “imperfection” of their body. This unhealthy obsession is the result of an image dictated to us by corporations who have a financial stake in our insecurities. People are not feeling insecure because they really are shamefully unattractive, but because someone else has convinced us so that they can suck the money out of our pocket books. We need a social revolution in our culture that teaches our young girls and boys that they are more than “good enough.”
“A magazine says your face don’t look quite right
Unless you wear our brand new wonder creme tonight
Never look right again
Unless you grease your skin
Again and again and again and again” – Dead Kennedys
Kim Woodbridge responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 10:54 am →
I think too much importance is placed on looks. I really wonder how it’s going to affect my daughter – she doesn’t care much yet but …
It seems that the money could be put to a better use too. It kind of comes down to who we think we are – are we our appearance? Or are we so much more?
Davina responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 11:40 am →
Hi Vered. I think Dan made a good point. I found myself nodding as I read. I have to echo many other commenters, “Whatever floats your boat.” I can see famous personalities “needing” to keep up appearances for their professions. But then again… with the $$$ they make, why not retire naturally as they age? Or are they afraid to lose the “fans” they’ve accumulated and the attention? Have they tied their fame to how they look rather than who they are?
And then, there is a difference between a nip and tuck and a makeover. Many of the stars that I hear are having this done are already drop-dead gorgeous to begin with!
Cricket responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 12:22 pm →
I have such mixed emotions about this. I am concerned for my children. As my teen son is approaching the age of curiosity he has mentioned younger girls getting boob jobs, etc. He is growing up in a society that he will never know any different. This saddens me.
For me, I just want to take care of myself and age as I go. I want my grandchildren to see a wrinkled face. I am OK with that. I will not judge others if they choose. It just is not right for me.
artiphys (dan miller) responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 12:52 pm →
Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful comments. Rather than respond individually as Vered often does, let me make a few more general points.
As to risk: obviously, risk/reward decisions are very personal. With each year of medical advances, the risks of surgery tend to go down. I think the argument for on-camera professionals is strong (most of you, some grudgingly, agreed that this case is special). However, the same argument a highly paid actress might use could also apply to an executive in the world of fashion, even if they aren’t “on camera”. Even in professions where looks and appearance aren’t an explicit part of the equation, many studies have shown that how you look has a significant impact on how you are perceived, and therefore on things like promotions and status. This may be unfortunate, but it’s true, and it’s not likely to change anytime soon.
Cost: obviously this is barely an issue for an actor or actress making millions of dollars a picture, especially since the improvements themselves almost certainly increase his/her earning power. So perhaps the issue is more about access for all, rather than absolute moral values? I think the case can be made that this issue is a specific example of a much larger question for society: As technology advances, will the benefits of being rich increase to the point where there is less social mobility? Will we end up with a techno/biological/medical class structure of haves and have-nots?
Here’s a related issue that I think is even more potentially divisive: If (when?) genetics advances to the point where you can methodically rid your future children of genetic “faults” such as congenital disease, and if this process were made freely available to all people who want it, would you take advantage of it?
What if you could tweak the genetics to ensure your child has a high IQ?
An athletic build?
Better looks?
The real question is, do we have the right to control our own destiny, if the technology exists to do so?
-dan
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 1:19 pm →
@ Carla: I think very young people, especially 20-somethings, do have a hard time imagining what it feels like to age.
@ Jannie Funster: Agree that sun exposure is a huge factor in aging. But for many of today’s 30-somethings or older, it’s too late: we’ve had unprotected sun exposure as kids and most of the damage is done by age 18.
@ Maxo: So the issue is, our society should accept aging and not try to fight it or tell us it’s ugly. The problem is, as Dan pointed out, this is unlikely to happen.
@ Kim Woodbridge: “are we our appearance?” – unfortunately, as Dan points out below, our appearance does have an influence not only on how we’re perceived by others, but also on our career opportunities and advancement.
@ Davina: I felt the same as I was reading Dan’s post. He makes a very good point. While I wish society would accept as aging, it doesn’t, and so it’s difficult to judge or blame anyone who decides to use surgery to look younger.
@ Cricket: “I will not judge others if they choose. It just is not right for me.” I admire your approach.
@ artiphys (dan miller): “The real question is, do we have the right to control our own destiny, if the technology exists to do so?” This is a much broader question. We can add another example – suppose advances in the science of genetics would enable people to live longer – to 120 and in good health instead of the current average of 80 or so – should we do it?
Re engineering our kids to be “perfect,” while many are worried this would mean the end of humanity as we know it, I’m not sure this should cause huge concern, because mankind as it is now is so flawed, it would be highly eccentric to assume we have an obligation to keep it the way it is.
Back to the narrow subject of aging, I think another important question is, can we make society accept aging the way it used to – human societies used to attach a lot of dignity and respect to aging. It wasn’t always considered shameful and ugly.
tom responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 1:59 pm →
This is a great article.
I always thought about plastic surgery as good and bad and now that I think about it while reading this article, i can say one thing.
Sure its fine, go ahead and get beautiful, but you first should improve the inside of yourself before you do the inside or else it will all become worthless.
Natural responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 2:03 pm →
I agree with aging gracefully, but to me, this also means taking care of your skin and your body – without operations or injections. Those things are just not for me. I tend to think those people, some of them, over do it and come out looking worse off than anything age could have done to them.
Maxo responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 2:03 pm →
@MomGrind: One does not need to wait for such a revolution to happen. I love myself and my body despite the images the media inundates me with. I also teach my children to do the same, even without the revolution I speak of. If a normal person (as opposed to someone badly scarred from an accident, for example) is so unhappy with the way they look they are willing to go through extreme surgery to put themselves in line with societal expectations, then something is definitely completely wrong. We shouldn’t just give up and accept unhealthy norms, letting ourselves and our children being bullies into a unhealthy corner. Should we just accept the gross over-consumption of fast food, or the dangerous levels of pollution each of us produces? No, we should recognize a problem and work to fix it, not work justify those who perpetuate it.
ido responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 4:28 pm →
Dan, I agree with most everything you wrote. Whenever I hear someone expound on the wisdom of God’s (or nature’s if you prefer) ways, whether related to aging or anything else, I am always reminded of Yossarian’s retort to Lieutenant Scheisskopf’s wife’s defense of pain as God’s way to warn us of harm. Why couldn’t He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person’s forehead. Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn’t He?’
BTW – you write beautifully and thoughtfully. You are wasting your talents as a programmer – you’d make an awesome philosopher (if only that would pay the bills).
Urban Panther responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 6:13 pm →
I had to sit and really think about this. I won’t question the ‘keeping young for your acting profession’. That makes sense, but sadly only because we as a society don’t find aging actresses marketable.
I am 45 and my hair is completely grey. I love it. I don’t see grey hair, but when I was dating, men told me they couldn’t date me because of my grey hair! Seriously, they said that to me. They liked my company, but couldn’t wrap their minds around the grey hair. And they weren’t making up excuses to drop me, because there are much easier excuses to make up!
In the end, I found a man who loves my grey hair, and finds the self-confidence it represents sexy.
And I think that he will find each of my aging attributes equally sexy IF I find them sexy.
I am rambling I guess, but I will conclude with the fact that both my grandmothers lived into their 80s and were absolutely stunning women, with no surgical intervention. And now I have my post for Thursday!
Patricia responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 8:22 pm →
I am having a growth on my lip and face removed – it is a benign tumor. My second round of plastic surgery – the first was to be put back together after a botched surgery for ovarian Cancer – both of these make my life better and my living easier.
My daughter has had 12 surgeries for cleft palate repair – she is stunningly beautiful – no repairs for the lesion in her brain over long term memory. I would do it again and still pay off the $261,000.00 this cost because she will have a better life even though no medical ins. will cover beyond the basic closure repairs(not for braces or the nostrils collapsing, or augmenting spaces with no bone development)
I have been asking myself questions of ethics about choosing sex and abortion for gender and health choices/ and designer genetics and super races/ and transplant surgeries and and and…all those ethical questions.
I like the way I am listened to and respected in the blogging world better than in the physical world – I m very intelligent but look like a 60 year old heavy, granny in the real world. I don’t look like the person I feel like….but I will give my cosmetic dollars to my children – if they want a tattoo they have to have the money to remove it in a savings account and the money to have it done….if they want my permission – that is a choice.
What are the risks, what is the desired outcomes, are they looking outside themselves for inside satisfaction. People will do what they are going to do….Designer humans hmmm…that worries me, concerns me…
I love diversity and am tired of current concepts of perfection….they change
Good discussion and idea sharing.
What one does to serve life is more important to me than all the surface changes.
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 8:45 pm →
@ tom: “you first should improve the inside of yourself” – I completely agree.
@ Natural: I agree that when people don’t know when to stop, they often end up looking worse than how they would have looked like if they had let themselves age naturally.
@ Maxo: In theory, I agree with every word you said. But in reality, if more and more people are opting for procedures, and I don’t, then I am putting myself in a serious disadvantage. Don’t get me wrong: there’s nothing I want more than for society to go back to looking at aging as something that adds dignity to a person rather than take it away. I’m just not sure it’s possible.
@ ido: “you write beautifully and thoughtfully. You are wasting your talents as a programmer – you’d make an awesome philosopher (if only that would pay the bills).” – I couldn’t agree more!
@ Urban Panther: I’m looking forward to your Thursday post. You are one of the few over-40 women I know who is confident in her own skin. You inspire me!
@ Patricia: “I like the way I am listened to and respected in the blogging world better than in the physical world – I m very intelligent but look like a 60 year old heavy, granny in the real world” – I guess this is exactly what Dan is saying here. The fact that you’re being dismissed by others because you look “old” is infuriating, but it’s a fact. If you had the funding and the inclination and could make yourself look younger, why not do it. Your experiences truly illustrate Dan’s points although I completely respect your choice not to have plastic surgery.
artiphys (dan miller) responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 8:48 pm →
Urban Panther : “I will conclude with the fact that both my grandmothers lived into their 80s and were absolutely stunning women, with no surgical intervention.”
Ahh, but this brings up a funny point. Genetics plays a major part in all this; some people look older at 35 than others at 50. My wife, for instance, is a beautiful woman with great natural genetics. She has always looked 10-15 years younger than her real age. Lucky for her (and me) — but it’s the luck of the draw. It’s not like she’ll pass for 30 at 60 — no one can. But we all age at different rates, for reasons we can’t always control.
So is it OK for someone who happens to age prematurely to resort to surgical techniques to slow down or reverse that process? What about hair plugs for men? (one area where male vanity seems comparable to women’s). Male baldness can strike in one’s 20′s, and certainly makes you look not just older, but older in a way that no one I am aware of has ever called sexy or appealing. Not everyone can pull off the Yul Brynner bald look. (Remember the big hullabaloo when it was revealed that Ted Danson was wearing a rug during Cheers?)
So if hair transplants are OK for men, how can a little nip or tuck be so much worse? I’m sure some will say that a confident man doesn’t need the hair, and maybe that’s true. But is it so terrible for someone who struggles a bit with self-confidence to go for that change?
How about orthodontics? Not the most pleasant thing to put an adolescent through. I realize some people have a bite problem or some health reason to correct their teeth, but I’m pretty sure there are many cases where the basic motivation is appearance. I often hear mothers say it’s worth the discomfort and a couple year’s embarrassment because a great smile will increase their confidence later on. I’ve heard the same argument used to justify nose work, jaw reconstruction, and other types of surgical intervention early in life (teens). We’re not talking about anything like correcting a disfigurement — this is purely about improving one’s looks within the normal range. And in most of the cases I recall, the subject was supportive, if not pushing actively for the work to be done. The rationalization was that if you fix this one thing that is bugging them, they can move on and stop obsessing about the flaw as the reason for all their problems.
We could go on to talk about stomach staples (and the surgery often needed after major weight loss due to stretching), breast reduction (a friend of mine had it done, and it seemed to be a great help to her), and other types of surgical interventions. I guess what really puzzles me is why there is such a tendency to disapprove of someone wishing to improve their appearance in this way, when we are supportive of so many other things that are also arguably “against nature”. Why go to a dentist? Isn’t it more natural to lose your teeth by the time you’re 50?
Where is the line to be drawn?
-dan
Nathalie Lussier responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:18 pm →
I think that aging is actually worse for us “modernized” people because of a few things:
1) We eat crap. I can’t even call it food. We are so dehydrated and dead inside because we don’t truly nourish ourselves. No wonder we look bad on the outside.
2) We don’t take care of ourselves: we don’t sleep enough.
3) We don’t exercise. Look at Madonna, she exercises and she still looks great!
In any case, I plan to look like a beautiful old lady with a child’s spirit and the body that I’ve nurtured and taken care of over the years.
Evelyn Lim responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:23 pm →
I think it all depends for what reason the plastic surgery is for. If it is to restore a person’s appearance to being presentable, say after having his/her skin burnt after a freak accident such as a fire, then I’d say there is good reason to. If a person has self esteem issues, going for plastic surgery may not be the real solution.
As a society, we are far too concerned about looking good on the outside. But what about our inside? Do we spend as much time nurturing our inner Being as compared to the amount of time we spent on dolling ourselves up?
I’ve personally seen a plastic surgeon, who has Botoxed herself, up-close. To me, her face looked artificial.
Still, I’m of the opinion not to do things in extreme. It’s all about balance. Looking presentable is important and taking some basic skin care is not to be overlooked. Tools are definitely helpful to enhance our lives but let’s use them wisely.
J. Aiden Simon responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:26 pm →
I think it’s interesting that you compare plastic surgery to look younger with gender re-affirming surgery. There are definitely many similarities- wanting to look the way you feel- but are the motivations the same? Gender is felt from the inside, and the desire to look like the gender you feel you are comes from deep feeling that your body is not right, and never has been. The aging process is completely natural and normal, and embraced in many cultures. While some desire to look younger has to come from the inside- feeling your body is betraying you- it seems a lot of this influence also comes from outside.
Very interesting idea, I’ll have to bring it up in my Body Discourses class.
Diana Maus responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:47 pm →
I only have two things to say on this subject.
1. Nancy Pelosi has no expression (I don’t know why, but I can guess) and, as a democrat, that saddens me.
2. What was done to catwoman (I’ve seen her on TV) should be a felony.
Sara at On Simplicity responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:56 pm →
I’ll be honest: I’m torn. I’d love to say that I’ll resist the lures of cosmetic improvement, but I’m still quite young. At this point, it would be pretty presumptuous of me to declare things like tucks and Botox as right or wrong.
I absolutely do think that just because we live in a youth-oriented culture, we don’t have to pander to it to be happy or accepted. It’s not an either/or situation (either get surgery or be rejected). That’s a dichotomy I happily reject! Talk to me again in 20 years for the final word…
Marelisa responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 9:58 pm →
On the one hand, if you dislike the way you look–for whatever reason–and the technology is available today to do something about it, then why not. On the other hand, society has become very superficial and it’s ridiculous to be so youth-obsessed. I personally like the way I look and have never considered plastic surgery. Will I when I get older . . . we’ll just have to wait and see.
artiphys (dan miller) responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 10:06 pm →
J. Aiden Simon: “Gender is felt from the inside, and the desire to look like the gender you feel you are comes from deep feeling that your body is not right, and never has been. The aging process is completely natural and normal, and embraced in many cultures.”
I suspect that gender re-assignment would not be appreciated by many of the societies that embrace natural aging. This knife cuts both ways.
At a minimum, shouldn’t I have the option to look as young and beautiful as the best example of natural beauty and aging in our population? Why let the genetic lottery give lasting beauty to some and not to others? That seems as unfair as denying a person’s right to express the gender they feel they are.
I may be waxing argumentative at this point; I tend to like debates of this sort, even if they get a bit uncomfortable. Then again, one’s comfort zone may be a zone of indifference to alternate viewpoints.
What I detect, in this forum and for most of society at large, is a general “ick” reaction to the idea of using technology to radically change one’s humanity. It goes against most of our cultural upbringing. However, I would note that history is replete with examples of things that initially cause an “ick” response, and later it becomes apparent that the icky feeling was really just resistance to change. We’ve all seen the old newspaper articles explaining why women shouldn’t vote; non-whites shouldn’t be integrated into white society; Jews and Gentiles are intrinsically different; so on and so forth. Fifty years ago, the idea that a good percentage of Americans would support gay marriage would have been literally unthinkable.
Maybe this particular issue just reeks of vanity, and is abhorrent for that reason. For me, it’s really part of the larger question of “transhuman” intervention. There are some folks around whose ideas are extremely radical in this regard. The Wikipedia entry on transhumanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism) is a good starting point for anyone who wants to pursue this further.
-dan
Maxo responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 10:18 pm →
“if more and more people are opting for procedures, and I don’t, then I am putting myself in a serious disadvantage.”
I think there lies a major difference in our view. “Disadvantage” I guess that really depends on your world view. What kind of disadvantage? Are you in a race or competition with which you stand to lose by not undergoing plastic surgery to maintain and appearance of youth? If not, then there is no disadvantage.
Those who need to undergo plastic surgery to feel they are at an advantage are the one’s who are disadvantaged. Those of us who live life secure in who they are, both physically and mentally, are at a severe advantage to their peers in this invisible challenge. Self-confidence shines much brighter than most any other kind of beauty we posses as humans. To see a perfectly attractive person undergo plastic surgery is as sad as seeing a perfectly skinny person on a diet. It is like the Advanced Placement kids in grade school who beat themselves up emotionally because they didn’t know one of the questions on their test.
@artiphys: “a general “ick” reaction to the idea of using technology to radically change one’s humanity.” The problem is not undergoing surgery to change your “humanity,” it is about going through extreme and expensive measures to meet unrealistic and unhealthy norms that have been imposed on us by people who seek only to profit off of our own manufactured insecurities.
J. Aiden Simon responds:
Posted: January 26th, 2009 at 11:39 pm →
Dan,
I think that you’ve brought up a very interesting idea- I hadn’t thought about the idea of age as a large part of identity (forgive me, I’m young). I don’t wish to deny anyone anything- as someone who has modified my body to fit my brain, I think that it’s understandable that older people may feel and want to be treated as younger. I recognize that people generally treat old-looking people as old. I’m guilty. I think that people should be able to modify their bodies to fit the way that they see themselves.
I also agree that you should be allowed to make your body look as young as you want it to- genetics (or hormone washes in utero…) didn’t program my body to be male- I have to inject hormones and have surgery. The only decision I made was whether I would kill myself or allow myself to flourish. If there are older people who feel that they cannot live with themselves as old people, who am I to tell them not to be proactive and change their bodies? If they are healthy and alive and unhappy, why not?
I don’t think the discussion is about the “ick” factor and social change at all- the question you are presenting is whether we should be using medical advances only to cure, or whether medical technology can also be used in ways that cause psychological healing and cause no harm. This brings up the other problem- most people don’t realize that fixing the outside can sometimes fix the inside (as is the case with the only effective treatment for transsexuality).
Barbara Swafford responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 1:12 am →
Hi Dan and Vered – I keep thinking of the saying, “beauty is on the inside”, and based on many physically beautiful people I’ve met, I can attest to the fact some were ONLY beautiful on the OUTSIDE. Then, I’ve met others who wouldn’t be classified as beauties, but they are gorgeous.
For me it comes down to “to each their own.” But what I do find sad are the people who think plastic surgery will take care of all of their issues. As we all know, a plastic surgeon is not a miracle worker.
J.D. Meier responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 1:39 am →
I think in general society values the hard work paths, like Jack LaLane, but, less so, the short-cut paths of some of our favorite plastic gone bad victims.
SpaceAgeSage -- Lori responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 9:25 am →
I’m with Barbara — real beauty is on the inside, in our actions and our outlook. Graciousness, generosity, courage, love, gentleness — NONE of these require Botox or a scalpel.
Dan writes, “we live in a world that idolizes youth and youthfulness, and physical beauty as some sort of special achievement”
Question: If you idolize a thing, do you become it’s slave?
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 10:13 am →
@ Dan: It all starts with our society’s perception that aging is ugly and shameful. If it were possible to change this perception, then we wouldn’t need to fight external signs of aging.
Re the “general ‘ick’ reaction to the idea of using technology to radically change one’s humanity”, I tend to agree that this reaction is driven by fear of the unknown. As much as we try, we can’t stop it. Sometime in the (far) future, tinkering with our genetics will become mainstream – and engineering “better”, stronger, healthier human beings might actually rid our world of a lot of unnecessary pain.
@ Nathalie Lussier: I agree it’s important that we take care of ourselves. I’m not sure we age more than previous generations. “Life expectancy for Americans, around 49 years in 1900, has increased over the past century to about 76, thanks to improvements in health care, nutrition, and the overall standard of living for most people.”
@ Evelyn Lim: “As a society, we are far too concerned about looking good on the outside” – yes we are, so what should we as individuals do about it? While the right thing to do is probably to ignore it, is this really possible?
@ Diana Maus: I often wonder about the plastic surgeons who are responsible to the appearance of people like Michael Jackson or the Cat Woman. How can you do something like this to another human being, even if they requested it, even if you make tons of money doing it?
@ Sara: In my experience, it’s very hard for someone in their twenties to understand how difficult it is to age. I don’t know what it is about the human psyche that makes young people feel like it won’t happen to them, like they are somehow above it and will age “better”. They won’t. They will have the exact same struggles. I am now 37. Aging never really bothered me until about two years ago, when I noticed my first gray hairs and crow’s feet. When you see those things, it’s like a slap in the face. Suddenly you realize you ARE going to die some day. You are NOT invincible. You will not be forever young. It’s hard to explain. Let’s talk again in ten years.
@ Marelisa: “society has become very superficial and it’s ridiculous to be so youth-obsessed” – I completely agree. But as an individual, I’m not sure I am strong enough to ignore society’s perceptions.
@ Maxo: Perhaps there’s no disadvantage to me personally, because I don’t work in an office setting, but I think for people in the corporate world who need to make a living, an “old” or “washed out” appearance does put them at a disadvantage. Self confidence and being secure in who you are does help of course, but in certain fields such as advertising or even here in the Silicon Valley, looking “old” means making less money and having less opportunities.
I think Dan has added another topic here and made the discussion significantly broader. There’s the issue of societal perceptions regarding aging, and there’s the broader issue of tinkering with our genetics to produce a “better” human race.
@ J. Aiden Simon: “fixing the outside can sometimes fix the inside” – this is an important point. I think many people feel that the “right” thing to do is to accept aging and learn to be happy with whatever nature gave you. That if you have issues with how you look, they won’t really go away if you try to fix them with plastic surgery. But as your case, and the case of other transsexuals shows, sometimes the only way to make you feel like the real “you” is with plastic surgery.
@ Barbara Swafford: “But what I do find sad are the people who think plastic surgery will take care of all of their issues.” – as I told J. Aiden, in many cases plastic surgery doesn’t really take care of the issues. But in many other cases, I’m sure it does. So if you are 55, healthy and happy and young at heart, but you have bags under your eyes and a double chin and people treat you as “over the hill” because of that, a subtle face lift might be really helpful in that people will stop discriminating against you on the basis of your age. You will look as young as you feel. You will go back to being “you.” Again, the real question is, why DO people discriminate on the basis of age. But assuming they do, and the individual can use plastic surgery to look younger, is it really so bad to do it.
@ J.D. Meier: Had to Google “Jack LaLane.” Wow, I’m impressed.
@ Lori: But the point is, even if it’s wrong to idolize youth, even if you become a slave to youth if you idolize it, society does idolize it. As an individual, I’m basically powerless to change age-based discrimination. So do I age naturally and accept the discrimination, or do I fight it using plastic surgery? Same goes for “real beauty is on the inside” – of course it is, but we live in a society that doesn’t really see it this way.
Tess The Bold Life responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 10:22 am →
“the last year or two of life for most people I’ve known who didn’t die suddenly is nothing but a disgusting, shameful form of degradation and loss of dignity”
My mom is almost 89 and she would completely agree with this statement. When she was in her 70′s she begged all 10 children to not put me in a home. Well guess where she is now?
A couple of months ago she lost the ability to put on her own depends. It’s sad to watch her dignity go. It’s sad to watch her sad. Although she never complains and helps everyone around her.
I don’t thing there are any easy answers to aging. I do feel all judgement needs to be taken out of growing older. Everyone experiences shaming around aging because of the culture we live in.
Get plastic surgery or whatever you want but build shame resilience and you will be able to cope better as you age.
SpaceAgeSage -- Lori responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 11:27 am →
Interesting discussion!
My mom had a saying that drove me crazy when I was little, but now I value it: “If everyone is going to jump off of a cliff, are you going to jump off with them?”
Discrimination is fought, not yielded to. I’ve seen the prejudice against my 80-year-old mother with wait staff and clerks. If these people can’t see my mother’s value and respect her age, how do you think it will be in 5 or 10 years from now? I’m a Sci Fi buff, and I know how it will end up if left on this course. Nano- and bio genetic technology will allow amazing manipulations, including skin designs changing daily. “Want to wow your friends with skin like a sleek Cheetah today? — try The Cat’s Meow line of skin morphing products…if you don’t, you will be nothing but Plain Jane Nobody left out in the cold.”
I don’t mind that people can and will alter their appearances, what I can’t agree with is discrimination against those who don’t.
“We are shaped and fashioned by what we love.” ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Maxo responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 12:32 pm →
“but I think for people in the corporate world who need to make a living”
Looking around my office and the inhabitants of the various cubicles, I don’t think many people here could have got here with their because of their looks. That’s probably an aside though.
Dr. J responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 1:48 pm →
As a facial surgeon, I have to be supportive of my colleagues! Besides the more well known cosmetic procedures, plastic surgeons do much more. Work with burn victims, cleft lip and palate, and other deformities can be life changing for people. Whatever the specific field, a good doctor can offer so much to society that may not be as popular in the pages of Cosmo.
RC Rambles... responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 4:09 pm →
I originally didn’t want to comment, as I feel strongly that we should grow old gracefully. That being said, I had my own incident this weekend – something I probably will be mentioning in my blog in the near future.
As a woman in my 30s, I expect see the occasional grey hair. However, I found an abundance of bright white/grey hair amongst my normally dark brown/thick hair, in one area.
Normal part of aging? Yes. Horrifying in a way? Oh yes.
I don’t feel as old as my body is indicating I may be. I feel like college was only yesterday, and I don’t want to go grey yet. (And before anyone asks, no, I don’t think my mid-30s is THAT old, but this spot of grey hair sure made me feel like it was.)
Will I be coloring my hair? Yes.
That being said, I’ve had laugh lines around my eyes for years, and I know my upper eye lid area is not as smooth as it once one. (Some days, when I’m exhausted, I want to just walk around with scotch tape holding up my upper eyelids, because of the bags.)
Would I have plastic surgery to change that at this point? No. It is part of aging. But as I age and that process worsens? I don’t know – my view might be changing. I can look at my parents and say they both look great for their age and I have those genetics, but at the same time, I can’t judge how I’ll feel as I get older.
Am I letting media drive this perception of how I should look? Probably to some degree. The hair thing? Definitely, yes. (That and all the women in my life have colored their hair for as long as I can remember.) Isn’t plastic surgery just one more step in this process?
All this being said, at this point in time, I still think it isn’t worth it and that we should celebrate all ages in life. But as others have said – just because someone has better genetics than the next person, do we mock their choice to even the playing field through surgery? (I’m taking into account that this person has already done what they could naturally, to even out the playing field.)
artiphys (dan miller) responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 6:38 pm →
I’d like to make one final comment. First of all, thanks again to everyone for a lively, diverse, and unusually civil online thread. I hope everyone had a chance to appreciate the different points of view this subject seems to evoke.
I think the issue I have with this subject is one of self-determination. It’s clouded by the undeniable fact that the media does indeed push a nearly unattainable ideal of beauty and youthfulness on us. However, I suspect that this is largely a reflection of attitudes many of us consciously or unconsciously would have anyway, with or without media reflection and amplification.
The fact is that we are an evolved species of animal, and our aesthetics of beauty are (in my opinion) tightly coupled to the innate need to find a viable mate and reproduce. In the natural world we are adapted to, youth and (to a lesser degree) beauty imply vigor and health, and the choice of a healthy, vigorous mate with a good chance to live long and stay healthy provided a significant evolutionary advantage.
The world we live in today, with health knowledge, medical advances, and all the other related technology — including mundane things we take for granted such as dentistry, eyeglasses, and hearing aids — allows us (at least those of us with access to health care) to live longer, stay vigorous for more years, and generally enjoy a phenomenally better quality of life for longer than ever before. But it doesn’t change these evolutionary instincts; we still find youthfulness attractive and appealing. I am making the case that that may be somewhat innate, and not simply an artifact of media hype and the fashion and entertainment industry.
In any case, whatever the reason, people generally like to look young and healthy. And maybe they don’t even mind looking older but with a nip here and a tuck there. I’m saying it’s their choice, and it’s as wrong to look down on that choice as it is to ask “why doesn’t she color her hair?” (a comment I have heard countless times, from some supposedly very liberal folks, regarding women, often very attractive, who choose to let their hair color age naturally).
I guess I just believe self-realization is a personal matter, and it’s questionable at least to have a knee-jerk reaction to people’s choices in that regard.
-dan
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 27th, 2009 at 10:22 pm →
@ Tess: My heart goes out to your mom. I have a grandfather who’s going through his too and it breaks my heart.
@ Lori: “I don’t mind that people can and will alter their appearances, what I can’t agree with is discrimination against those who don’t.” I completely agree. I’m just not sure what can be done about it.
@ Maxo: Thanks for the smile. Today was a crazy day (unrelated to the blog, just crazy in a real life sort of way). I feel better now.
@ Dr. J: Of course plastic surgeons do more than erase (or try to erase) the signs of aging. No one here doubts that.
@ RC Rambles: “Am I letting media drive this perception of how I should look? Probably to some degree.” Me too, and I don’t like it.
@ artiphys (dan miller): “we still find youthfulness attractive and appealing. I am making the case that that may be somewhat innate, and not simply an artifact of media hype and the fashion and entertainment industry.” I can’t argue with that. The problem with the media is much deeper than its preference for youth – the problem is the media’s preference for the impossibly thin, perfect, flawless and poreless.
Dot responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 8:35 am →
Very thought-provoking discussion and well-reasoned arguments. I think you could add Cher to the list of people with overdone faces. Hers seems to be melting. “We generally accept things like tattoos, body piercing, high heels, makeup and so on — is this really that different?” Not exactly. Do we really generally accept tattoos and body piercing? They can stand in the way of getting some jobs, although perhaps that’s not true on the west coast? I guess if you’re arguing for going with the existing attitudes of American society as distributed by Hollywood — and not everyone buys into this in the rest of the country — then high heels and makeup are generally accepted. There are rural areas near where I live where wearing lipstick and eye makeup is enough to get me looked at with suspicion. I would argue that plastic surgery is more akin to anorexia or bulimia in that the body is damaged in order to fit in with perceived standards. High heels goes in that category, too.
The vast majority of hip replacments are done because of pain in walking, not for sports. As someone who has reached an age considered old (62), I do see how the elderly are marginalized and devalued. Even terms like “elderly” or “senior citizen” let you know that suddenly you’re not mainstream. A couple of lively, vital neighbors of mine were referred to as “little old ladies,” for instance. Who wants to be “little, old” anything?
When I was young, I swore I’d never dye my hair to look younger. Now that I’m at an age where people tend to think you might be getting senile and trying to find a reason to let you go, so they won’t have the burden of all the benefits you may be using, I want to protect my job by looking as young and healthy as I can, so I’ve covered my gray hair. But I won’t be having anyone cutting or injecting Botox into my face or any other part of me.
My objection, and that of many women, is to the culture that “requires” us to wear high heels, to live up to an unrealistic concept of “sexy” and to always look young or be deemed undesirable. A look at a few foreign films is enough to see that movies can be made and be hits with normal-looking people, not artificially-enhanced people. With you and others, I think people’s responses to the American obsession with looks are up to them, but I hate the obsession.
Mark responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 11:26 am →
What a post! I myself am not a fan of plastic surgery.
MommyNamedApril responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 11:32 am →
I don’t have a problem with plastic surgery, but I think it’s important that the person getting the surgery is not using it as a mental health coping mechanism. Does that make sense? Like, “these boobs will make me happy and a better person”… No, they will just make your chest bigger. But if that gives you a little more confidence, then o.k.
Melanie Thomassian responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 3:25 pm →
There are a few different arguments used in favour of getting plastic surgery, which, I think, completely miss the point.
Like the “executive in the fashion world”, or going bald, etc.
If you haven’t ‘made it’ in the fashion world, and gained respect in the industry long before you start to look old, then you’ll never make it. If you’ve made it and you’ve got respect as someone who knows their job, then people won’t care what you look like. In fact, I’d be surprised if their aren’t some highly unattractive (but intelligent) people behind the scenes in the fashion industry.
As for balding…there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. Once it gets to a certain point, men should shave it all off. Better completely bald, than half bald. There are millions of attractive bald men (those who cover it up, are the one’s we laugh at).
Whether it’s wrinkles, balding, overweight, or other physical deformities, how people are perceived is usually how they carry themselves. Embrace what/who you are, and others will too. Those who don’t, aren’t worth it anyway!
It’s the humanistic view expressed in the article (and maybe moreso in some of the comments), which has sent our society on an endless wild-goose chase. Hopelessly confused, more and more deluded individuals are trying the attain what doesn’t matter, in the hope of pleasing those who don’t care!
Robin responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 4:46 pm →
Hi Dan and Vered
As far as needing to manipulate appearance to fit in or keep working, my suggestion is not to mix with people who judge you because of your age – I don’t (I’m 55), and it really isn’t an issue.
I think people find plastic surgery distasteful because the person who has it feels very powerless and empty inside, and many of us pick up on this. We are not our appearance.
Dan, your “Besides the looks part, the last year or two of life for most people I’ve known who didn’t die suddenly is nothing but a disgusting, shameful form of degradation and loss of dignity.” rings very true for me. I don’t think it’s right – but we need to make changes on the inside, to our beliefs and so on, to turn aging and death around – plastic surgery just comes from fear CAN’T change.
Robin responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 4:50 pm →
I meant: fear we can’t change (at the end)
Stacey / Create a Balance responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 6:59 pm →
I believe in prolonging my quality of life and vitality. At this point in my life, I’m not interested in plastic surgery. Four out of four of my doctors (plus 2 physical therapists) agree that if I want my sagging belly to go away then I need to have a tummy tuck. I had 2 ten pound babies, my belly skin lost all elasticity, and my abdominal muscles are ripped in half. But I’m not ready for plastic surgery yet. IF the time comes that my sagging belly is having a negative impact on my back (and therefore decreasing my quality of life and my vitality) then I would consider having a consultation w/ plastic surgeon.
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 28th, 2009 at 8:12 pm →
@ Dot: “I would argue that plastic surgery is more akin to anorexia or bulimia in that the body is damaged in order to fit in with perceived standards. High heels goes in that category, too” – interesting argument, Dot. I’ll need to think about it some more, but I tend to agree.
@ MommyNamedApril: I agree that while in some cases fixing a cosmetic problem will enhance a person’s self image, in many other cases they just move on to obsessing over another flaw.
@ Melanie Thomassian: “how people are perceived is usually how they carry themselves” – absolutely true, with the possible exception of people over 70 which are being marginalized regardless of how they perceive themselves or how they carry themselves.
@ Robin: I too agree with Dan’s observation regarding how life ends for most people. While a positive outlook and taking good care of ourselves are of course important, I’m not sure we have the power to control how we die.
@ Stacey: “I believe in prolonging my quality of life and vitality” – agree – and I don’t completely disagree with Dan when he says appearance is part of a person’s quality of life.
Chris Edgar | Purpose Power Coaching responds:
Posted: January 29th, 2009 at 3:03 pm →
Thanks for this post. Thinking about issues like this gives us an opportunity to discover more about ourselves, if we’re willing to do some deep exploration. Some people I know have had cosmetic surgery, and when I ask them why, they tell me “well, obviously, I don’t want to look ugly.” But let’s question that assumption a bit. Suppose other people think or say you’re ugly. What’s actually wrong about that?
The funny thing is, if someone told me I was ugly, I really wouldn’t care that much. My sort of “core wound” is around being called insignificant or irrelevant. It seems that what triggers our core fears is different for each of us. I don’t think we emerge from the womb being insecure about being ugly, insignificant, stupid, or whatever — we learn those insecurities and perhaps we can unlearn them.
Anyway, end of rant.
Madeleine Fitzpatrick responds:
Posted: January 29th, 2009 at 8:23 pm →
I agree with Dan – if you can have some minimally invasive procedures that make you look fresher and less tired, then bully for you – they should help you live life to the full. Face-lifts have come a long way since the universally skin-stretched era.
Funny that you referenced your Last Acceptable Form of Discrimination post, as I was just thinking about it this morning. I wanted to say that there is another Last Acceptable Form of Discrimination that I find more disgusting – and that is gayism.
My husband and I just came across this AP headline in our local paper: “Lesbian former unionist set to become Iceland’s interim leader.” How embarrassing: I can’t believe we are reading this in 2009. Glancing up the page, my husband inserted one word into the stand of another story to make a point: “Republicans unanimously oppose package despite heterosexual Obama’s overtures.” How ridiculous does that sound? So why do we do this to gay people? If I were the Icelandic politician, or my daughter or sister was, I would feel completely sick reading that headline.
At least when it comes to age discrimination, we’re all in the same boat together. Gay people, on the other hand, have to put up with this kind of moronic labeling their entire lives – something straight people never experience.
MomGrind responds:
Posted: January 29th, 2009 at 11:07 pm →
@ Chris Edgar: “we learn those insecurities and perhaps we can unlearn them” – perhaps, with a lot of hard work.
@ Madeleine Fitzpatrick: I agree. It’s outrageous and shameful. I do think gays have made significant progress, but we as a society obviously still have a long way to go before gays reach full equality. I do believe it will happen, though.
Cecily responds:
Posted: February 5th, 2009 at 3:03 pm →
I am 27 years old, and depending on my clothing, can look 16. Actually, it’s hard NOT to. I just have one of those faces and a small build. As the married mother of a toddler and holder of a Master’s degree, I HATE IT. My mother started getting grays that showed in photographs at 25 – I would love a few grays. I found some once, and I guess they fell out, because a couple days later they weren’t there. I look like a teen mom. I would give a great deal to look my age. I’ll be thirty or older before they stop asking for my license when I buy wine.
I think there is a perception of wisdom, respectability and life-experience that comes with appearing to be older, and choosing willfully to hide it past a reasonable age is to abdicate all of that. What strangers think when my son is behaving as toddlers do out in public is NOT, I guarantee you, what they would be thinking if I looked a decent age to be a mom. Instead, I look like yet another case of “children having children”.
Not to mention, people CAN do the math – if you’re obviously over fifty and your hair hasn’t a strand of white, you’re obviously dyeing it. If you’re a grandmother and have no crow’s feet, well, we can figure out that your face is fake. And after a point, I think it starts to look ridiculous.
Brigitte Bardot is a well-aged grand-dame. Cher is a mutant.
MomGrind responds:
Posted: February 5th, 2009 at 4:19 pm →
@ Cecily: “If you’re a grandmother and have no crow’s feet, well, we can figure out that your face is fake.” – true and very well said… but I guess some people, my friend Dan included, feel that there’s still value in LOOKING young.
Wesley responds:
Posted: February 10th, 2009 at 3:11 am →
I know this wasn’t the point of the post but your friend needs to take a look at Nadia from Big Brother! ‘Nuff said.
Wesley responds:
Posted: February 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pm →
You know what, actually, that line really offended me. I don’t care if it wasn’t the point of the post; he says it like it’s just something everyone assumes and doesn’t even bother to defend it. I’ve seen transgender people on TV who were gorgeous. Whenever they have one on a talk show she is always stunning. Has Dan ever seen a transgender person? I’m sure I’ve met them in real life but I can’t say because I usually wouldn’t be able to tell they were previously men except that it says on the TV show.
MomGrind responds:
Posted: February 13th, 2009 at 5:54 pm →
Wesley, I agree it was an offensive thing to say. I’m not sure Dan is too worried about being offensive, though.
dan miller responds:
Posted: February 14th, 2009 at 1:30 am →
> I’m not sure Dan is too worried about being offensive, though.
Hmmm, MomGrind, that’s not very charitable. I certainly don’t mean to offend mindlessly. It’s true I am not afraid of shocking people’s sensibilities, if I think they are being hypocritical. In the case in point, I in fact have known quite a few transgendered people. I respect them totally, they have every right to make those decisions. My point was sort of the opposite of what I’m being accused of. I may have said it unartfully, but what I meant was that radical surgery to make yourself look different doesn’t always meet your own expectations, or those of society. And yet, it is your right, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It’s not up to me to judge them and say they don’t “look like a woman (or man) should”, however it is merely honest to point out that, with today’s technology, it is not always possible to change a person’s apparent gender in a convincing way (assuming that is the goal). Much of it comes down to confidence: the transgendered people I’ve seen who come off as attractive are the ones who feel that way about themselves. That’s sort of my whole point.
What I find hypocritical here is a carefully politically correct stance about transgender, coupled with a free-for-all on putting down people who modify their body for “pure vanity”. Old people should be “comfortable in their own skin”. My point was, why don’t we say that about gender? Because we (today) acknowledge that people have a right to self-determination, and HOW you present to society is part of that equation. We no longer say to someone who feels different than their born gender, “just be comfortable with what you were born with”. We allow that they feel different, and they want to take steps to change their body accordingly.
What I was trying to get at was that while we are careful not to lay our expectations on someone who changes their appearance to suit their gender identity, when it comes to age identity, we have the same old response — live with what “God” gave you. Why the difference?
I certainly didn’t mean to offend anyone, and if I did, I apologize.
-dan
MomGrind responds:
Posted: February 14th, 2009 at 12:06 pm →
It was a compliment, Dan. I care too much about being politically correct. Anyway, I think your point regarding gender identity vs. age identity is valid.
Can you age gracefully and have plastic surgery? responds:
Posted: March 10th, 2009 at 6:21 pm →
[...] over at MomGrind was host to a guest blogger recently. Dan Miller wrote a post supporting cosmetic plastic surgery in order to defy the natural affects of aging. Those of you who know me, probably thought my [...]
MomGrind: Best of 2009 | Blogger For Hire responds:
Posted: January 1st, 2010 at 9:01 pm →
[...] In Defense of Plastic Surgery. A guest post by my beloved, real-life friend Dan Miller, who writes Artiphys, this post [...]